LGBTQ Relationships in TV

Speaker 1 0:00

You're listening to the Staffa Corner Podcast, a Staffatarian look at entertainment and life with your host, Greg Staffa.

Speaker 2 0:29

My guest this episode is talented actor Devin Kowalka, who stars as Charlie in the Apple Plus series Shrinking, and Dr Kai Tanaka-Reed on NBC's Chicago Med. Devin, thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 1 0:45

Hello, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 0:45

I'm so excited to be here. I am excited to have you on. I'm enjoying the first several episodes of Shrinking. I'm actually on number six with episode four just airing.

Speaker 2 0:55

It's a show I love and in fact, your Michael, who plays your significant other Brian on this series, has one of my absolute favorite foreshadowing moments. Oh, tell me, it is one of the ones that I don't know why it rocked me so hard, but it happened in. I want to see episode three where they're talking about how Brian is as a person and Brian's the first person to drop everything and ask how you're doing. And there's that scene that comes up later on where he's confronted with someone and for those who haven't seen, I'm not gonna spoil it too much, but you could see that no matter how much pain that person caused him, he was going to eventually ask how are you? And it was just such a profound moment that I don't know why that scene in particular just hit me so hard. But it was a great scene and one of these years I'm hoping to talk to him about it because it just it. It was so profound, given the the character's journey and what he's seen his friend go through and everything he's went through losing his friend and to have him be able to have that courage to ask that. That was one of my favorite scenes of the season.

Speaker 2 2:14

But let's get back to you. Charlie, on the outskirts, or written on paper, would be a very minor role. You know you're the husband of not a minor character, but a character on the outskirts, and yet you've had some great storylines. In fact, we just had one now with the parenting thing. Was that something that you knew was going to grow and you would be a bigger character and have more influence, or how did that turn out this season?

Speaker 1 2:43

Yeah, you know that's a really good question. When I auditioned for Charlie one, I think they only said he would be in two, maybe three episodes. At that point we didn't quite know. I don't think they knew the size that Charlie, what size of role he would have or what impact he would have on Brian's life, or maybe even that you know they would eventually get married in season one. So I'm not sure that they understood that they I don't. I actually don't know. I've never asked Bill how much they had planned at that point, but I know that my contract only had two or three episodes in it. So when I auditioned I remember just knowing Charlie and this relationship between him and Brian. And it just so happens that also at that time it had already been announced that Michael Urie, who you just mentioned, who's just such a wonderful actor and person.

Speaker 1 3:35

I knew him personally. We had a. We had actually, during the pandemic, played games of mafia on zoom together because we have a mutual friend. So we had met and so there was so much of the life that I could imagine just off the first two scenes that I got for the audition and I just knew from that, from reading those sides, that these two were going to get married and that they were going to have, you know, explore the ideas of fatherhood and that they were going to I don't know, I just had all these dreams and hopes, I guess, explore the ideas of fatherhood, and that they were going to.

Speaker 1 4:05

I don't know, I just had all these dreams and hopes, I guess, as one does when you have you, when you're at the beginning of a relationship that you think is going well, right. So I'm not sure if that's what they picked up, you know, from shooting, or if that's what they liked about my audition. So you know, I always think that you know, obviously so much comes from the page and those writers are so brilliant that when you get the story, you interpret the story that they have and then the life that you bring to it is what you know is the collaboration. And so you know, I would guess that, maybe because I had all those images and thoughts about Brian as Charlie in those initial stages, that that's where the character development came from.

Speaker 2 4:46

Well, so, in building your own character in your mind, the writers were kind of picking away, even if subconsciously, and creating kind of a similar path that you would envision.

Speaker 1 4:57

so yeah, I spend a lot of time especially in the first season and in the second season obviously too creating the life that they have together. You know, Obviously there's a joke running about what Charlie does for a living and that no one really knows. But you know, there's all these decisions that you sort of make off camera that build the life. And then you come in and you say what you say and I think what reads is not necessarily the details that you decide upon, but that there is a full life behind the person that you're seeing.

Speaker 2 5:25

I think that's one of the things I so enjoy about your guys' characters. I think a lot of times when we see characters that are LGBTQ, you know, we kind of brush it off as like, oh, it kind of feels forced and they're just kind of forcing that relationship. But you two, as crazy as it may seem, have probably the healthiest relationship out of the entire series. Um, and it's painted in a way where it doesn't feel forced, like you know well, we need to put the gay couple in here to make it feel.

Speaker 2 5:57

I think that's what shows like I think that's why it shows like shrinking and even like, um, modern family were good, because they could address these kind of issues without having it feel like, oh, they really forced us in there just to kind of meet the checkboxes that are in the show. I don't think it ever felt forced watching it. It felt like you guys have a loving relationship and it played out that way. It just happened to be that you guys are gay, but it's also also, like I said, it's one of the more healthier relationships in the series and so it's you guys are the ones that are gone to to to kind of have the relationship questions answered.

Speaker 1 6:37

Um, yeah, I mean I think the show so beautifully illustrates that. You know the family we choose. You know that's made from friends, colleagues. Whatever the family we choose can be just as meaningful and supportive as the one we're born into, right, like that. It really celebrates the strength of community and the value of deep friendships and that we're all like the fact that they've we're all one big family and that they're all friends. And I think that's what we love about shrinking and what we love about any bill lauren show is that we just love to hang out with the people that we're watching. You know they, they become family to us and then they become our chosen family, just as the characters are each other's chosen family.

Speaker 1 7:25

And I think Brian and Charlie's inclusion is, you know, obviously, in the scheme of relationships that are on the show, it's the youngest right, it's the one I mean. Besides, you know what Alice and you know the teenage stuff that's going on. It's the youngest of the relationships and it's one of my favorite things about the show is watching these two men get mentorship from the people who have more long-term relationships, like Liz and Derek. You know there's some wonderful scenes with them. You saw Michael getting advice from them about the baby itself. I just think that seeing people from different life experiences coming together and actually having shared experiences is what's so special about the show and, honestly, what the world needs To see that diversity actually is not just diversity, it's actually that we're all the same in some capacity.

Speaker 2 8:27

And I do believe that diversity is very important. I think it just needs to come across more naturally. I think sometimes we try too hard to kind of squeeze that diversity into something and it doesn't feel natural and it becomes more forced than anything. But I think shrinking does a great job at just you don't think about it. Yeah, and Brian and Shirley, I think shrinking does a great job.

Speaker 1 8:45

It just you, don't think about it yeah, and brian and charlie, I think are a great. You know they have an odd couple nature to them. You know brian's very anxious and worried and always overthinking and charlie's always breathing and you know, relaxing and having, you know, there to just sort of like breathe through brian's anxiety and I think it just shows that they really love each other for who they are and that they're the yin to the yang you know.

Speaker 2 9:11

Let's just admit it You're the rational one.

Speaker 1 9:14

I'll never say it out loud Never, never, never.

Speaker 2 9:18

So I'm up to episode six right now. Episode four just aired. What's something that we can look forward to in the future there, something that you can, without giving too away too much, something that you can tease that, uh, fans of the show can look forward to?

Speaker 1 9:31

yeah, I mean, you know, I think the process of having a child as a lgbtq plus couple is is. You know it's not an easy one. It's a. It's a difficult journey. It's not quite as easy as like oh, we're pregnant, I guess we're doing this, you know Um. So there's a lot of feelings and emotions and I think you're going to see a lot of twists and turns when it comes to um, how they as a couple navigate. And I think you know the main question will be can these two sort of get through this you know the idea of parenthood and get through to, you know where they I don't know can find agreement and what the future holds for them?

Representation and Access in Acting

Speaker 2 10:23

Nice. It's very fun, a very fun series. I think more people need to check it out. It has a little bit of everything in there. It's a little raunchy, a little fun, just a little bit of everything. But I think it's more realistic in many ways. I mean, when you hang out with your friends you're stupid. I mean no offense. But when we hang out with people that we're comfortable with, we say stupid things, we do stupid things and I think on TV friends are written so cleanly and so professionally that you kind of lose that element of how you're acting when it's just your, your pals, or you and your friends that are just hanging out. And I think I think shrinking captures that that kind of playful teasing, this, um, raunchiness, kind of perfectly.

Speaker 1 11:17

Yeah, I mean, I think that it uh, you know, in the way that the show really, as the moment that you described so beautifully acted by Brett Goldstein and Michael, you're at the end of episode four. You know, obviously there's a lot of themes of closure and forgiveness in this, in here, and I think it also comes in the humor, right, like that people are being vulnerable, people are being stupid, and also knowing that people will say stupid things and be like oh, come on, you know they will give them the benefit of the doubt and that you can be vulnerable in front of people and say stupid things and not, you know, be canceled. Basically, right be be taken, held, held to a standard that is inhuman yeah, now you're.

Speaker 2 12:03

You're not in that many episodes, you're kind of an outlier character. Are you able, as a fan, to watch, or are you following along with the other storylines, or are you just when it airs? You check it out and you're just as surprised as the fans are. How does your involvement off screen work? You?

Speaker 1 12:21

know it's a mixture. I it's funny because when I show up to set I feel like, well, my storyline is the only storyline that's going on, right. But what's fun is when I get to show up and I have a day with Jason or I have a day with Jessica or Harrison, like that, we get to sit down and sort of be like so what's going on in your part of the story? And you know, I get the scripts and I get to read them and that's all very exciting and fun. But it's so different to hear how it you know it's always different in person and how it films.

Speaker 1 12:48

So I'm aware of the overall storylines and the arcs, but I really like I do like to be surprised, you know it's I really like to watch it as people are watching it, as my friends and family are watching it, and sort of get to experience it with them. I did, you know, when I watched the first the pilot episode not the pilot episode, sorry the first episode of season two I had laughed so hard and then I was crying at the end and I walked out and said to my partner like this show is so good. And said to my partner like this show is so good. You know like I just I find like enjoying it in the live with everyone else is so satisfying that I try to do that as much as I can.

Speaker 2 13:34

Now, is some of that because you're someone that has come out and this role kind of not necessarily mirrors your life, but is a lot more you than maybe a Dr Reed might be to you, or is it just regardless of your? If your character was straight and you had a wife, would that seem kind of you know? If brian was bethany um, and this is pretty much the same would would that be the same? Or because it's kind of personal to you, uh, resonates more uh, I don't.

Speaker 1 14:15

It's interesting. I don't know if it resonates more. If brian were Bethany, I think I would feel the same way about my work and about the show itself. You know, I do think that when you're playing something that is closer to you, there are things that in your lived experience that you may not even be aware of, that are brought to the role, that are seen, that are brought to the role, that are seen.

Speaker 1 14:40

There are different colors, right, it's maybe not so black and white, there's a little bit more gray, there's more spectrum in there, right, and because it's coming from a life lived, you know, in terms of like comparison to Dr Tanaka Reed, I always think about. You know, obviously, these two roles are very, very different. Charlie is maybe the nicest human that ever existed and is the most supportive husband, and Dr Tanaka Reed is very much an arrogant surgeon, asshole and um. But honestly, both of them have parts of them in me, right, like there are. There is a part of me that is that arrogant asshole and there's a part of me that's the nicest husband ever, and that's just what is brought to the forefront every time I'm playing one of those characters.

Speaker 2 15:27

Now, as a straight white male, it's hard to identify sometimes with with some of these characters. I keep on hearing that for roles involve, like, a gay character, it should be played by someone that is gay or LGBTQ. How does that necessarily work? Because if I was going to cast someone as a gay space cowboy, you've never been to space, you've never been a cowboy.

Speaker 1 16:07

You know, you've never been to space, you've never been a cowboy. So why is the sexuality part so important, to have knowledge in that role, when the rest of it is to basically live, breathe, think, see in given circumstance and relationship, right, basically, like, whatever life you give me, I'm going to live inside that and I'm an actor, so I'm going to transform into that character by living under the duress that that character is currently in. Yeah and so that could be anyone. And there have been some gorgeous performances over the years. You know, like Tom Hanks and Antonio Banderas in Philadelphia. Like there are just gorgeous performances of men who identify as heterosexual playing gay and are, you know, inscrutable, like they're just beautiful performances. You know, inscrutable, like they're just beautiful performances.

Speaker 1 17:01

I think the thing that I would say is that part of the reason why it's important for gay actors, lgbtq actors, queer actors, to play queer characters is because for so long that access has not been afforded to queer performers right To be able to play themselves.

Speaker 1 17:16

It's sort of like that old adage of like women have to do the same thing but dance backwards and heels right, like if a queer person is always playing straight, they're always pretending to be someone else, they never get to relate to themselves, and so when you get the opportunity to relate yourselves, you actually understand a deeper part of your artistry. And not only that, you also get to do it in a level that builds your career. So you become more and more famous, you make more and more money, you have more and more influence, right, and that's part of just access to the industry, to the world. And a lot of gay actors this is sort of a generalization, so forgive me if this is a hot take, but I think a lot of gay actors have, who are famous now have made their fame by playing straight and then later on exactly, exactly, and have and then have later come out as gay in sort of like, uh, the need to live their lives as a, as a famous person.

Speaker 1 18:17

But I guess my question is and we don't really know this is would they have been afforded the same access to the industry, the same growth in their career, if they had identified as gay in the press? And I think probably not, because in a way, I think that the people who are making decisions are mostly heterosexual, right People at the top what the true gay experience is through their lens, and when they watch a straight person do that, they might also be seeing something that feels more like not a generalization, but like the idea of the thing than rather the actual thing, right, even if very well acted. And I just think that there's not only something missing in a performance when you don't have someone who identifies as queer playing a queer character, but also you're not giving access to those queer artists to, um, have bigger careers Sure Right and to be more in the public eye. So I think it's actually less of a question of craft and more of a question of access to money and, you know, ability to live and support oneself through their art. Okay.

Speaker 2 19:42

That makes sense. I just think it's a slippery slope, because do you cast, you know, a 40-year-old white male to play a father if he doesn't have kids to be on a father? You know, to be on Modern Family? I mean, when we start inserting those things you know the new Penguin series, you know why I wasn't a heavyset actor, given that opportunity to play a penguin instead of putting a guy in a 50-pound fat suit. I mean so when you start playing those things, instead of saying Matt Bomer's a great actor.

Speaker 2 20:15

I loved him when he was in, you know, white Collar. I loved him when he was in the what was it? The Lonely Heart, is that the movie? He's a beautiful actor and so it didn't matter if he was playing gay or straight. He's a talented actor. And maybe I'm just naive in thinking that you know, you guys are all actors. You do a wonderful job as Charlie, you do a wonderful job as charlie, you do a wonderful job as kai doesn't matter, because kai, I think, is straight in the as a role, right? Um, yeah, so maybe it's just my own naiveness and thinking. You know, why can't we just play roles? Because you're an actor, you should be able to do either, and so I yeah, I think you're right and I think you're not.

Speaker 1 20:55

You're not naive, I think. I think in some way it it's just you're an idealist. I just think there's been years and centuries of discrimination that is being fought against, because there isn't discrimination against a father playing a father. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 21:15

yeah, I was just using it as a comparison of a mindset of they need to do that. But I get what you're saying. I think it's just too bad that we're still. We're still fighting that. I think some of it is what you're saying is, until we've learned to do a better job at creating these roles and acting in these roles, we better just do it ourselves instead of making like a mock tour, instead of something that might look like you're mocking gay people. Um, you know, portrayal, it's better just to have us, it's safer to have us do it until writers can learn how to better write for gay characters yeah, wasn't it.

Speaker 1 21:54

Wasn't it um g't it Um Ginsburg, who famously said like when will, when will it be enough women on the Supreme Court? And she said when all nine justices are women? Something almost like yes right, like it's sort of like that kind of thing. I think it's about like the idea of like when equality is when we are truly equal, equal.

Speaker 2 22:14

Do you feel that we're making strides in doing this?

Speaker 1 22:17

Yes, I definitely do. I mean, you'll even see on breakdowns that they're looking for people who identify as and I think there's a larger education for people sort of who have a little bit more access, whose careers are a little bit more up, that they're like. Oh you know, I don't really want to play a gay role because that's not my. You know, there's a little bit more of a conversation around it and I also think people think it's important. You know, obviously. You know each situation offers a different opportunity and it's not. It doesn't always have to be true, but I think, as we keep making gestures towards more equal representation, I think we'll find that then everyone can play everything.

Speaker 2 22:59

You know what I'm saying at the opposite end of the spectrum, then do you find yourself hindered because you are an out actor now and someone might see the role as you know, dr kai and go oh, we're looking for a straight man to play dr kai um does. Is that hindering you at all, do you find?

Speaker 1 23:20

No, I don't think so. I mean, unless there's some sort of bias that I'm not aware of right through the casting or through producers or whatever. That's a really hard thing to judge or have any sort of metric on. You know like how many roles did I lose out because of this?

Acting and LGBTQ+ Representation

Speaker 2 23:42

And I don't mean it because of biasness or anything like that, but when you hear about characters written in the mindset, this is what we're looking to fill the role. Like you said, we're looking for an LGBTQ plus actor to fill this role versus Akai maybe they're looking for the description was a straight male. Wasn't like intentionally LGBTQ plus actor to fill this role versus a Kai Maybe they're looking for the description was a straight male. It wasn't like intentionally ignoring anyone that was gay, but it just that was how the character was envisioned. He has a wife, maybe, or whatnot. You know it does that kind of hinder you getting cast because you're not.

Speaker 1 24:16

I don't, I don't, I mean obviously it didn't with kai, sure you know. I I mean, though, kai, I think you know not in that breakdown, if I remember correctly, there was no description of kai's sexuality. So I think you know he was really described as arrogant and anyone, I guess, can be arrogant. So I don't know. Yeah, I think it doesn't. Anyone I guess can be arrogant. So I don't know. Yeah, I think it doesn't. In terms of my process as an actor, it doesn't impede me because I just live the life that I imagine. Sure, you know, and I think that whatever happens outside of that, outside of my work, whatever people see, is something different, you know, but I truly feel the best work comes when you bring yourself to and your own humanity to, and life experience to a role in the given circumstances that are offered by the writer, you know.

Speaker 2 25:09

Yeah, and I mean, like I said, I hope that we're reaching a point. Like I said, you and Brian well, you and Michael, but, as Brian, have one of the more normal relationships on this series and I think it's admirable. And to me, it's not about being gay or straight, it's just you especially. You're probably the more voiced reason out of any of the characters on this series and I don't think that should matter. What your sexuality is. It's a relationship and, at the core, relationships are very much the same as far as you know, trusting and exploring and debating about kids and how to raise kids and stuff like that, and so I think all that's universal. You've worked with so many talented actors, many who I've interviewed tom ellis, oliver platt, billy bob thornton but I am jealous as heck, uh, because you are probably the closest person I'll ever get to interviewing. That's worked with harrison ford um, he, ever since I started doing this in 2012, he's been on my top four list. Um, I just have to ask the fan in me what's it like working with Harrison Ford?

Speaker 1 26:20

I mean, harrison is one of the kindest and most generous people in the business. He's incredibly funny, he's a good listener, he has a very dry sense of humor and is a great actor to boot. I mean, watching him work this season has been incredible and I'm so excited for everyone to get to see what he does. You know, I grew up watching him on Star Wars, though actually my family was a Star Trek family, so it was a little bit of a piece of contention that I liked Star Wars so much as a kid. But of course I knew him from that and indiana jones my favorite was the fugitive, so I'm just as big a fan as you. And then, strangely, I'm actually even a bigger fan of his wife, calista flockhart.

Speaker 1 27:10

So one of my favorite things to do when we're off camera is sit and, you know, ask, ask questions. You know I got, I got. I got a little peek into how they met, which was a really nice story. Really cute, meet, cute. They're just he's. He's incredibly charming and incredibly kind and every actor obviously wishes, you know, would love to work with him and they should, because he really is that good.

Speaker 2 27:36

Well, I mean, as far as Hollywoodwood couples, you're always hearing horror stories, but they've been together for a year. I mean they've. They've been together a long time yeah, I, I, they have.

Speaker 1 27:48

I don't know the length of their relationship actually. I mean, I assume from the story I know they met sort of during ally mcbeal. So it's a long time, right. I don't remember when ally mcal was, but I think maybe the late nineties, right, yeah, um, and so you know, that is a long time and uh, they seem to be. They're just such great people and seem so happy and it's just so fun to get to. You know, meet the people behind the fame.

Speaker 2 28:18

Well, it's just shrinking, is like the Harrison Ford role that just fits him so perfectly, it seems. I mean, at times it just feels like he's being Harrison Ford.

Speaker 1 28:29

Yeah, I mean it's interesting, right, because we have this idea, especially when someone becomes that famous, right, it's like they're Harrison Ford, they're this thing, but really they're just as normal as we are and as infallible as we are. And I think that's what's so beautiful about his work on this show is that he doesn't have to be harrison ford, you know we're. We get to see, we get a window into seeing who the non-movie star version of harrison ford is, and see him deal with, um, sickness and forgiveness and vulnerability in a way that's so human and also incredibly funny. He really does a great job at marrying the dramatic and the comedy, as this whole cast does, and I think he's just such an example of a real craftsman, right. He really knows how to build a house.

Speaker 2 29:27

Oh, I mean you and Michael, so much for the times that you get to spend. I mean Brian or Michael especially he gets some quality time with Harrison, so the fandom is so jealous and I tried to get him on the podcast too, but he's busy. I think he has a play going on right now. Speaking of plays, you really started out with plays in mind. I mean, you did a lot of uh. You went to school for theater, you did Jeremy O Harris's slave play, uh, which first was on Broadway and then in Los Angeles, uh, but you haven't done much theater since because you're acting so much on film and TV, or when can we see you doing more plays?

Speaker 1 30:09

Yeah, I mean, I love, I love theater, I love going back to doing plays and yeah, I mean whenever I have a little bit of time. I mean it's hard with the TV schedule that I have right now to get myself on stage just because the rehearsal process and the performance. You know just the amount of time that it takes to commit to a theater project and once you're in one, you don't want to leave it, you don't want to. You're committed, right, you know, hopefully soon. But as long as I'm, knock on wood, so lucky to be working on these two amazing television shows, I think I'm just going to have to squeeze it in when I can.

Speaker 2 30:49

Now we're seeing a lot of theater being transformed into film and TV. Any chance for a slave play to become a movie or a limited series that maybe we could see you return in.

Speaker 1 31:01

I don't think so Because, jeremy, I think is pretty clear that slave play is a play and not a movie. I think he's been asked many times to make it a movie and just doesn't want to do it. And he made a little document, not little, sorry. He made a documentary for HBO that I think sort of speaks to that and speaks to what the play is and who he is, which I appear in very briefly. But I think he wants to keep it a play because of the medium and what the medium does for the play.

Speaker 2 31:36

You've had a lot of performances on TV and film. A lot of them were one or two episode characters and now, with Shrinking and Chicago Med, you're finally seeing kind of settling to home a little bit. Is there any character looking back that you would have loved to see be expanded on or wish fans of yours that are are coming to learn and, like your, your acting uh, should go back and check out oh, you know, I really um, you mentioned tom ellis.

Speaker 1 32:07

I think tom ellis is one of the nicest guys in television. I loved working on Lucifer and I really loved playing that he. I played a uh, a dental hygienist who no, I wasn't a dental hygienist, I was the receptionist in a dental office and was married to the dental hygienist and I thought that, basically, that Lucifer Tom Ellis had slept with my wife, and so I start having thoughts of vengeance. And it's still to this day. I think the shots are so beautifully done and it's a very funny episode and I would love to play someone like that again. I would love to play someone like that again. It was very fun. I forget which season that was, but it was really fun. You should go back and look at that.

Speaker 2 32:57

Okay, and then, regardless of pay or stability, which is more fun? To be a guest on something or something that's more like a Dr Kai, where you're in many episodes?

Speaker 1 33:09

Yeah, I love getting to go to set, where you're in many episodes. Yeah, I, you know I love getting to go to set. There's nothing better Like when I'm on Chicago Med. The crew and the people who work there are just incredible people and you get to know them so well and their families and you know what they like and what they dislike and all that stuff and it's just it's like a true family and, um, especially with a show that's been running. For what is this? This is our 10th season now, so they, everyone, really knows each other and that is always so fun to get to go to work and just see people that you know and love and get to hang out for the day. So I think, obviously, I think that would be the dream for me, and also to develop a character over a longer period of time is fun.

Speaker 2 34:02

But I mean, there's nothing better than than guesting, because you get a pop of getting to meet new people and get to surprise people and that's always a pleasure as well who is someone that you would like to work with and who was maybe someone that was that you met, that maybe you had a pre preconceived notion of who they were, or something that really surprised you, that kind of maybe took you in, taught you a few things, um, and who's someone that you would always love to work with, because you've worked with so many talented people yeah, who's um?

Speaker 1 34:36

well, you know, there was this in an episode coming up that hasn't aired yet. There's a scene with all of us in most of the main cast, um in the room and it took two days to shoot. It was a pretty special two days and I remember, specifically, ted McGinley said to me you know, really relish this moment, these moments, because you know, when you shoot these shows, you really, you know, as I said, I really see Michael and people who are in my storyline. Right, I don't really see as many of the main cast if for that season we're not, you know, partnered together. I think I had a lot more scenes in season one with Jason and then season two, I only really, you know, I didn't see him as much.

Speaker 1 35:21

So, really relish these times when you're all together and it was so interesting because, like the newer generation of actor, everyone was, you know, we would go off camera and they would get on their phones and text and go on Instagram. You know, just like we all do these days. But then you know someone like Ted McGinley or Harrison Ford, you see them sitting there and just you know, hanging out raw, dogging it, as the kids would say, and just you know shooting the shit and talking, and you realize that, like so much of the of the joy of this job is, though, are those moments when you get to hang out and talk, craft, talk life with people, and getting to sit there that day and talk to Harrison and Ted was, uh, just one of the most special days, and I'll I'll actually always take that with me, that every set I go to to really take a moment when I go off camera between setups and set my phone down and make sure that I'm really connecting with the people around me, because it's such a joy to get to do that job. As far as someone to work with, I mean, I'd really love to work with Calista Flockhart. I've just I love her so much.

Speaker 1 36:28

I loved her on Ally McNeil. I think she's so talented. I think that would be a really fun person to get to act across from.

Speaker 2 36:36

Come on, harrison, you can arrange that, yes exactly, I've got an in.

Speaker 2 36:42

I think that's what's so interesting about Hollywood is because we hear about all these Hollywood stars and everything and we kind of have this preconceived notion. I was an extra for a film Prairie Home Companion which was filmed in here in Minnesota, which is where I am, and it had like Meryl Streep and Kevin Kline, woody Harrelson, lily Tomlin, and it was filmed in a theater and so there's only about 30 of us extras and I just started thinking of the time that you were talking about sitting around the couch. In between takes, the 30 extras would be sitting there and Meryl would have no place to go or Kevin Kline would have no place to go, so they'd come down and just start chatting with us. Fun, it was to be an extra on something, but then the moments of off camera just realizing that Meryl Streep is just a real person with a potty mouth, um is was even more. I mean, I have more stories from that.

Identity and Representation in Acting

Speaker 2 37:40

You know you're talking to someone and someone comes up behind you and cuts in and like, hey, dude, I'm having a conversation and you realize it's Kevin Klein. You're like oh crap, uh, hi, kevin, uh, just kind of. Look at the Klein. You're like oh crap, uh, hi, kevin, uh, just kind of look at the moments where you're able to sit around and kind of take it in, like you said. Uh, it makes for some amazing moments and that's some of the best memories I have. So hearing you convey that story kind of reminded me of that, so I appreciate that. Um, of course, if someone saw you walking down the street I would have to imagine that being half Japanese, of course to an internment camp and he was left on the outside. I'm assuming it's because he doesn't look Japanese. Tell us a little bit about that project and how close to home is that hitting for you?

Speaker 1 38:38

Yeah, you know, my, my family was in the internment camps. My father was born in 1940 and went into the camps when he was one and a half to 1942. And then my uncle and aunt two aunts were both born in the camps. So it's always been something that's been a part of my life. I was alive when Bill Clinton gave reparations for Japanese Americans being interned, and so it's always been part of the story. And so I've always wondered, you know, as someone who is half Japanese, half Caucasian, and also someone who you know people like to say is passing, you know, which is sort of a difficult word because I don't feel passing. On the inside I feel half Japanese. So it's always an interesting moment to be sort of confronted with how people view you versus who you feel, who you feel like, and so I think that is sort of what my exploration is on this topic, and it hits really close to home the idea that you can feel Japanese, you can feel a part of something, a part of a family, a part of a culture, and that other people can see that and that it offers you privilege in a way that just feels in conflict with your experience as a human. And what do you do? What does one do that, uh not. What does one do with that privilege? And also, what does how does one feel on the inside from, you know, feeling like they're constantly hiding.

Speaker 1 40:22

You know, one of the things that's been so interesting before I think there was a time when I entered this business where being umacial and still today it's not talked about that much but being biracial, it doesn't make sense in the eye. People want people to be one thing or another. They want you to be full Asian or full white right, and being half it becomes tricky. And so there was a fair amount of time in my early years where I spent auditioning, wondering when I would be in audition room, auditioning for like a typically white character in the 1920s or something like that, and being like do they know and I think that is what I'm trying to explore is what that experience is like. When you are, you know, in some way feeling like what? Like not understanding how to exist in a world when people see you one way but you don't feel that way.

Speaker 2 41:27

Now you have very different, two different stories. Basically, they're very similar in the fact that you had to kind of not necessarily hide who you were, but you couldn't fully be yourself until you kind of came out more the same kind of I don't want to say notion I don't want to compare the two being equals, but did those kind of feeling like you're not who you should be or not being presented because you're put into one box or the other, did that help give you a better understanding of who you were?

Speaker 1 42:04

as you figured out who you were, You're talking about in terms of being gay and being?

Speaker 2 42:10

Yeah, I don't mean to simplify it now much, but there's a lot of similarity there. Did that help with one or the other?

Speaker 1 42:17

Yeah, I think I remember distinctly at one point getting an audition for a very small lawyer role on something you know, whatever law and order.

Speaker 2 42:30

Not Alan. Mcneil Not Alan.

Speaker 1 42:32

McNeil, small lawyer role on something you know, whatever the law and order, not what it was, not, um, but getting an audition for something, and I remember my knee-jerk reaction in my head was this character is white and straight.

Speaker 1 42:44

And then I realized, after looking at it for, like you know, I don't know, maybe an hour or so I went wait, none of the breakdown says that you know. Actually, nothing in this breakdown says that that's what this is, and so I'm actually putting that on myself, and so I'm trying to perform the photocopy of something that I have a perceived understanding of from, you know, years of existing in our society, and I had that moment where I thought, oh, that actually doesn't, I don't have to do that because people will see what they see and I just have to be who I am. And so those two things sort of like helped me understand, you know, like I would understand more about being an open gay actor and I would understand more about being a half Japanese actor, and I think they fed each other, which, you know, is what your question is. They did. They fed each other and helped me process through the ways in which I was maybe not revealing my full self all the time when I was younger.

Speaker 2 43:54

Sure, and back to the Japanese story. How far along is it? Because I know that's kind of one of your pet projects. Where are we with that?

Speaker 1 44:01

Yeah, we're in an outline and we're hopefully off to script soon.

Speaker 2 44:07

Okay, and I'm going to ask my last question, uh, even though it kind of got answered. Uh, but if steven spielberg came along and said I love your work, I worked with harrison ford, and he says you're a great actor, I want to give you harrison ford money, uh, to tell a story that you want to tell. What's the story that you would tell? My guess is that you would say the japanese story, but is there any other story out there that if you were given Spielberg money to kind of tell, what would you want to tell? Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1 44:36

Well, first of all, from your mouth to God's ears, and, second of all, you know I have always loved space. I grew up loving that movie, um Contact starring Jodie Foster, and um, I just love. I love things that take, that are about the imagination, right Like ET. And so when you mention someone like Steven Spielberg, all I want to do is go into the beauty of movie making that he's so great at and tell stories that expand our horizons and expand our understanding of what the universe is out there very small creatures in a very large, large environment, and that realizing both the humility of being human and also the power of being something human, something that has grown to such a sentence in this, just out of sheer magic and willpower. Sure.

Speaker 2 45:49

And I'd like to have two more quick questions. So many when it comes to actors and actresses. We see you and we see Charlie, or we see Dr Kai, or we associate you with characters that you've played. When you get up in the morning and look in the bathroom mirror for the first time, splashing a little water on your face, who do you see?

Speaker 1 46:09

Oh, wow, I'm working on that every day in therapy.

Speaker 1 46:12

Um, I, um, you know, at my heart I am, uh, I'm a person who, you know I actually don't know how to answer that question who do I see when I, when I splash my face, face Someone trying to do good in the world, someone who enjoys a good glass of wine, someone who likes to cook, someone who likes to work out, hang with their friends, a lot of quality time?

Speaker 1 46:49

You know someone who also struggles. I think that, like, something I've really been thinking about is that we all, throughout this life have, will always experience some sort of pain, some sort of conflict, and our job to keep our happiness, you know, to keep our joy, to keep our curiosity, is to allow ourselves to live our life while solving those problems and not get wrapped up in them. And I think every day, when I look at myself in the mirror, I think you know you have this thing going on. You know, however small or however big today, but you're still so lucky to get to live this life that you have. And yeah, it's something that I really took from my father. My father believed that and knew that in his bones, and I think I follow in his footsteps.

Speaker 2 47:39

Nice, so we have Chicago Med on NBC and we have. Shrinking which is currently airing on Apple, plus Anything else that fans can see you on coming up in the near future that you can talk about.

Speaker 1 47:51

No, nothing, nothing. Yet we're working on these two shows and feeling really, really blessed and always looking for the next opportunity. So catch me, as you know, doing some arrogant surgery as much as you can on NBC and then being a loving husband on Apple TV+.

Speaker 2 48:09

And possibly father. So Devin, maybe We'll see and possibly father so.

Speaker 1 48:13

Devin. Maybe We'll see.

Speaker 2 48:14

Devin, thanks for joining us today. I really appreciate it and wish you the best of luck. Thank you so much, Greg. It was a pleasure. That does it for this episode. Thank you.