Welcome And What Designers Control

Greg Staffa 0:00

You're listening to the Stafford Corner Podcast, a Stafford, Entertainment of Life, with your host, Greg Staff. Joining me today is production designer John Dondertman whose work has staged and helped stage the worlds of film and television, including series and films like Jason X, Orphan Black, Chucky, and Flashpoint, from futuristic spaceships and superhero environments to neighborhood stores that feel completely authentic. John's designs demonstrate how much visual storytelling happens before and after even walks on set. John, thank you for coming on the podcast today.

John Dondertman 1:00

Nice to meet you, Greg. Tell us a little bit about what production designers do. Well, simplest explanation is we're responsible for everything you see on camera. So aside from for most production designers, they don't get involved with wardrobe. But anything else that you see, which would be a horse and buggy or a vehicle, or like you said, a spaceship, a western town, you know, if it's more contemporary, could if it's a spy show, be all the set dressing and offices. So pretty much everything that's that encompasses everything. So that's the basics of what we do. But then there's the storytelling aspect, which is, you know, we we read into the script and decide about color schemes and texture and maybe types of locations. If there's a specific character who is, you know, reads a lot, you're gonna have a lot of books in their apartment. That's a very simple sort of explanation.

Greg Staffa 1:59

And when you say everything in the room, and you mention like maybe the the character likes to read a lot, when the character sits down in his chair and picks up one of those books, it then becomes a prop. Now, would that be the prop master, or is that you?

John Dondertman 2:13

And yeah, so the prop master works under my purview as well. They're also, you know, a department into themselves. So it depends on the show. So if they pick up that book and maybe it's a fictitious cover, so we would make that in the art department, you know, even if there was um, you know, or if it's a comic book, we may do the whole have outsource and have the illustrations done in the whole bit. So we're heavily involved with all of the details that you see on screen.

Greg Staffa 2:45

And you mentioned that the prop department is under your purview. What other departments, if any, are under your purview, also?

John Dondertman 2:53

Well, there's uh we have always paint and construction, we have scenic artists, sometimes sculptors. Now, with within props, depends on the kind of show it is. Like when I did Titans, there's you know, these superheroes have all these gadgets. So I worked with the props guy getting conceptual art done and getting the build done. And that's you know, that requires a lot of effort and organization because often you're on extremely tight timelines. So getting these things built these days, because our conceptual artists are so good, you know, we can provide a very realistic 3D version to show the studio or the producers or the directory, which helps helps with the approvals process. So they can say that's exactly it. Maybe make the end blue, or can it be stainless steel instead of black? But that's sort of, you know, all under my purview to organize that stuff. My art director, you know, within my department of set designers, art director, graphic artist, coordinator, you know, trainees, we have other people doing things, and then there's the set dressing department, the set decoration, which can also be anywhere from 10 to 20 to 30 people. So, you know, depending on the size of the show, I can have one to 200 people working for me quite easily. And then we also lays carefully with the locations department because you know, the locations tell the story, so we have to make sure we're getting locations that we can work in easily that fit the storyline, that we like the look of, that make the director and the story for the writers happy. So there's there's a lot of people I interact with.

Making Real Locations Shootable

Greg Staffa 4:36

Now, one of the shows that you did a lot of work on is the show Flashpoint, which is a show that I really enjoyed. Oh, yeah. It seemed like a lot of that was on location. When you get a location, is there it almost seems like they just filmed on the street or they just film how much? I mean, is your job basically almost not only thankless, but invisible at times? Where it just looks like they went down a street and filmed. How much work actually is behind the scenes that you were involved in?

John Dondertman 5:09

Well, flashpoint, we actually did a fair bit. Uh it that's a long time ago for me. So I gotta like really go in the way back machine here. But there was a lot of locations, but again, it's often you go into a house, most of the times it's not ready to shoot. We have to move the furniture around. It doesn't work for the block, you know, for the action or for the people like sitting around having tea, or you know, maybe there's a piano in the middle of the room, all kinds of things, or the house is white. Um, there's always a lot of work in goes into the locations. And with Flashpoint, we also, like, for instance, there's an episode where Enrico is on the scoreboard on in the arena. He's sort of been held hostage in this giant area, which is like uh where the all the hockey is played here in Toronto. So we had to like lower that. There was a lot of work in that stunt, but I also there was like a room where the you know the bad guy was holding prisoners. So I built that room in the studio, which seamlessly integrated with this with the location. So there's a lot of that where we might like if the bathroom is too small to shoot in, for instance, we'll build the bathroom, or there's just parts of the set that are not practical to shoot on location for different reasons. So we have to integrate those seamlessly into the place for shooting.

Greg Staffa 6:30

I started to bring you so far back in your history, just Flash Point is one of those shows. I loved it, and it's one of the very few Canadian shows that made it to U.S. audiences, and you don't get many, even though many shows are shot in Canada, this was an entire production Canadian-based. And so it was a rare, I think Dew South was another TV show that made it to American audiences. And so those two shows really were unique for Canada, but it was also I thought it was a really good show. And so that's why when I saw your resume had so much involvement in that, I my my ears perked up.

John Dondertman 7:10

Oh yeah. It was yeah, it really resonated with people because there was, you know, often some kind of resolution, heartwarming resolution at the end, and uh, I think they had a good formula, and the act people really enjoyed, really like the actors. Enrico and um and uh Hugh Dillon, who's now on mayor of Kingstown, he was in in Yellowstone, so he's been

Reacting To Scripts With Storytelling

John Dondertman 7:36

around.

Greg Staffa 7:36

Yeah, it's a great cast. When you get a script, you know, are you immediately pouring into you know thinking of sets, or how does your process work from the moment that you're you're brought on, or how does that how does your thinking process work?

John Dondertman 7:51

Well, for instance, well, it's every show is different, right? With Jason X, you know, we knew I was building a spaceship, and on Chucky, I came on and I read the script. And so the first season, I had to build the main character's home and also this uh boarding school, Catholic boarding school. And so we find in that particular case, we had to find the exteriors to match to the interiors. So we found this fantastic uh Gothic, pseudo-gothic exterior here that we use then to design the interior. And then I work closely. The showrunner Don Mancini, he's the original creator of the Chuck E series, so he's been with it since the very beginning. It's very, he's very close to that. Means a lot, you know, it's it's kind of interesting to work with someone like that because he cares so deeply, even though it's Chucky, a guy's crazy stabbing, killing people. But it's you know, it's part of this guy's uh Don Mancini's life. So he really has a uh I'm struggling for the right word, but it's he's got a heart for this story. So he's a really good person to work with because he also has a real clear idea of what he wants. Maybe not always so obvious, but you know, when you dig into it, when he sees the right thing, he knows what he wants. So that was that was a lot of fun. Like we built this uh dark, sort of gothic Catholic school where all kinds of crazy stuff happened. We ended up building a cabin where Chucky was doing all kinds of terrible stuff. So I am meandering a bit, but yeah, you really react to the script. We built a bell tower, somebody falls off and lands in this statue of the Virgin Mary. So we get to do lots of kooky stuff, it's really fun. In that particular instance, when the person's thrown, Chucky throws someone out of the bell tower, they land in this statue, and we made that. We had to make that uh lifelike life-size statue as well. So we do, you know, we we do work with a lot of mediums, put it that way, a lot of different disciplines.

Greg Staffa 10:06

And how much interaction, like with the director or whatnot, are you showing them sketches? Are you showing them 3D designs? Absolutely.

John Dondertman 10:15

So, first I come up with a concept for a set, and I might have some render preliminary renderings, something something, or I may just show a series of images and say, is this what you guys are thinking? But I work super closely with the director because you know, particularly in a show like Chucky, where there's a lot of action, there's people coming out of closets, or Chucky goes up the fireplace. There's the the set has to be very focused on the screen direction of where people are coming from and where they're going. Uh, you know, there's different levels, so going upstairs, downstairs, you know, and that that was a big part of that show. So yeah, I work in that case, you know, it depends on the setup, but uh sometimes I just work at the beginning with the showrunner, then the director comes in and I start tailoring what he needs. But at that point, the basic footprint, you know, the big idea is there. Then the director comes in, he may need specific things. But in the case of Chucky, the showrunner, I worked at all the colors, I worked at all the set design, everything with him. It's his franchise.

Building A Show’s Color Language

Greg Staffa 11:21

When you have the pilot being filmed and a world is created and designed in a look, and then you come in after that. Is there a lot of effort to pay homage to that, or do you start creating your own look, or do you watch the pilot and kind of get a feel for that look or your own interpretation?

John Dondertman 11:40

Yeah, in that particular case, the pilot was shot entirely on location, and they needed the uh the um cop police state or the you know the SWAT team, the place that they hang out where they work out, do their meetings, and you know, look at their weapons and their vehicles and all that. So I designed the set, and there wasn't there was a certain look, but again, because they shoot these pilots so quickly, nothing was really uh fully integrated. So I started working with the two producers whose show it was. We're back and forth about the colors. We had been designing the set, and that was all going pretty good. And one day they came down to the shop in the studio where we were working, and they saw this saw, like a chop saw. Anyone, most people know what that is. So that it was a Makita. So the body of the saw was blue, but it had like an orange um safety guard, plexi, clear orange plexi. And they looked at it and they go, that's the color scheme we're after, that blue and sort of orange thing. So that became kind of uh that came something that I was I worked with. And you're subtle about it, you don't go crazy, but you know, that a lot of the glass, if you watch the city stuff, it all has tinges of blue. So there was a lot of blue running through that, and then like the main set. If you're if you're a fan of the show, you would notice they have these sort of orange strips of light in the gym. So that's kind of that's how that came about. It's like that that rarely happens, but they just picked this one piece of equipment that was laying in the shop where we were building the set, and they they they hooked on to that.

Speed, Swing Sets, And Tight TV

Greg Staffa 13:25

Well, now you did 74 episodes over five seasons for a show that runs about 44 minutes and doing your job. Is there a lot of and I don't mean to say this in a bad way, but there almost has to be corners cut or it can't, you know, compromises made, or do you have enough time to get everything the way you want it, or is because it almost seems like you're on to the next episode. How do you kind of find that balance to to appreciate what you're doing and have the time to kind of do it?

John Dondertman 13:59

That was that was a really busy show because we're on location all the time, lots of sets, and then you know, they're kicking down doors, they're doing all kinds of stuff. We had the truck communications truck that we built that they would do a lot of page count in. But I would what I'd say is I've been working in film and TV for a few years, but that show, I really kind of cut my teeth on that, for lack of a better expression, because I did so much so quickly. I would literally, I'd be locations, I'd come back, I'm like, okay, I know I've got this set to build. I would literally have five or ten minutes, sketch this out, give it to my set designer, and uh give them give them some reference that I would work out with the producers and bang off we would go. So we we we banged out a lot of scenery. There was one, there was pretty well a set, a couple of sets in every episode. So there were I had built this apartment to start with, and we turned that apartment into several different apartments. We turned it into Nona's kitchen. Uh, I kind of I lost track how many sets we just converted that set over and over and over again. I think it became a hospital at one point, all kinds of stuff. So we would expand it, contract it, add windows, but I always kind of worked with often as I could worked with this footprint for some of these uh what we call swing sets. But you know, as far as compromising, I didn't feel like I had to compromise that much. I felt like we did pretty good work. I had a very excellent paint construction team, and we because we did so many episodes, I got really tight with my set deck, set decoration department, and this woman Liz Calder had is just so good at her job. Um, that you know, I think I think we were able to keep a pretty good standard on that show, like visually. Um again, it's a long so I haven't watched it for a while, but you know, it's like 15 years ago, longer. Yeah. So that was it. I didn't feel like I had to really compromise too much.

Greg Staffa 16:04

And again, I didn't mean that as a negative, it just meant in the world of production, things go so fast and to have that many episodes, it almost felt like you almost had a and I I didn't mean it derogatory, but you have to find solutions quickly. And so I just was wondering if you know if that was ever a problem or not. Well, it wasn't easy, it wasn't easy. Did that help make you a better production designer to have a show like that early in your career? Like you said, you you cut your teeth on it. Did that help you as far as finding solutions and kind of not letting yourself feel overwhelmed?

John Dondertman 16:40

I think so. I I really like I we did so many things so quickly, and so you get a you know, you develop your own look, I guess you would say, like I my own style. And early on, a lot of the you know, something I'll mention is that directors helped me out a lot too. Because I'll be designing when earlier on, I'd be designing a set and I'd be worried about the budget. And for instance, this woman, Holly, cole, just straight up and said, John, this is no no good. We got to do better than this. So, and because they were asking me, like you're saying, about the budget, really pounding on me. I'm like, okay, and let's do something. She goes, Let's do glossy black in this bathroom with stainless steel and put a mirror at the end and all this stuff. And so, you know, sometimes the directors really help push me because they want something that looks good. So I have, I'll I'll say, which maybe surprise a lot of people, but I've learned a lot from directors, also because of the blocking. You know, they're they're looking on a set and they'll go, well, the guy's got to come in this store. They're flipping over the couch and they need the camera here. So I learned I learn a lot from that process.

Time Versus Budget In The Real World

Greg Staffa 17:49

What do you feel is the biggest hindrance in doing the best in your job? Is it the budget or the time constraints?

John Dondertman 17:58

It's time. Time. Sometimes money won't won't fix uh the issue. So and I'm and in my opinion, it costs the same amount of money to do a really nice stylus set as to do a bad-looking, or you know, cheap looking set. Like it costs about the same, it's just the way you approach it. So but so money, money can be an issue. Depends, you know, how the production rolls, you know, like on some of the bigger shows, you'll be like, okay, like for instance, Chucky, the the showriller really, really wanted the president's dining room. And it was it's a big set, it's like a lot of detail, very expensive set dressing, artwork, and everything. So I was like talking to line producer, I go, there's no way you guys have this in your budget. And but the line the Don Mancini really felt like it was super important. So then one day they just said, Okay, how much? They gave us, gave me the money. So it's like at one point they, you know, the production will come to grips with we can afford it or we can't. And if they really can't afford it, then it goes away.

Proud Builds From Chucky To Titans

Greg Staffa 19:10

Is there anything that you're especially proud of? Is there a shot? Is there a threat that you you know had over you know, overcome you know a lot of hurdles, or you didn't think you were gonna be able to pull off that look that they were looking for?

John Dondertman 19:26

Well, I would say probably the last season of Chucky where I built the West uh the White House was pretty pretty good work from my like we had a lot of fun. I built the Oval Office, uh, you know, I built the West Wing, we built part of the East Wing, and then so that was and it was a lot of other stuff going on too. I built a lot of satellite sets, uh, some motel rooms. So I would say that came out both seasons of Chunky for me came out very well. I'm really happy with the work. And again, you know, I always have to credit the people I'm working with because they're also, you know, like a man like Don Mancini, really has interesting take on the filmmaking process. So he's you know, it's always a collaboration. But you know, Orphan Black 2, I loved working on that show. We got to do so many cool things on that, on that show. Same with Titans, I got to do some cool stuff, but that was a situation on Titans where we never had enough time. So it was like so hard. That show was the toughest show, one of the toughest shows I've worked on because the schedule they could never get everything shot. So, you know, at one point, the only reason I got this, I think it was a spaceship, or it might have been the Batcave, one or the other built was because the actor, main actor wife had a baby, so he left for like a few days, and then they start decided to reshoot the pilot. So I got about three weeks extra time to build, I think it was a spaceship. But that one was the toughest. I think I think it looked good, has you know, has some scope. I got to do, you know, when I was a little kid, I was a mad Batman fan. So for me to build the Batcave was like, you know, you can't even sort of comprehend, you know, as an adult that it's hard to even like comprehend that you're doing that.

Greg Staffa 21:21

Is that something you thrive in? The feeling like you're behind, the feeling that you're trying to make these budgets. It almost sounds like a high. I mean, we don't think about it. You're the job that you do is almost invisible, and yet there's a lot of pressure to get it right, to get that look right. Is that something that you find exhilarating? Is it frustrating? How do you react to those kind of pressures?

John Dondertman 21:44

Yeah, I love you know, I love my job. Like every job, you got good days and bad days, right? And uh, you know, I might be stressed because the guys' carpenters are behind. Yeah, that'll that'll stress me out or a hundred percent, but you try, you Know, okay, certain things are out of my control, focus on the things I can have impact on, but you know, I make sure I get the drawings out, all the designs done as quickly as possible. Like I just I I do that because I need I need to get that stuff rolling.

Greg Staffa 22:17

And when you create you create these drawings to show like to the directors and stuff like that, has there been any drawings that you've done that the director rejected, and you say, I'm gonna hang on to this because someday I might be on a film or a show where this is needed, and I absolutely love this drawing, and that you used it for another show?

John Dondertman 22:38

Um, I can't remember that anything like that's happened. There's probably ideas that come come around for colors or textures or things that maybe I don't use, but I I would have to really think about think on that to come up with a with a with an answer. Not as far as a set specific thing that I started working on that we scrapped. No, it all just like one show rolls into the

How Designers Watch Movies Differently

John Dondertman 23:06

other.

Greg Staffa 23:06

When you watch films yourself, are you able to disconnect? Are you always looking at the environment around the scene?

John Dondertman 23:14

Yeah, I've I no most of the time I really am hyper aware of the sets, the way they built the sets, the way they're lighting it, the colors, for sure. I I really I notice all that stuff. I I looked to see, okay, there's certain things I could tell if it's a location or a set. And so if I'm still wondering, I'm like, okay, these guys did a great job because I can't tell if it's real or in the studio.

Greg Staffa 23:40

And when you get that script for the first time, what is like your first, what's your first process after reading it through?

John Dondertman 23:48

Well, I look at the sets. That's like actually, uh before I even read it in detail, I'm kind of like scanning and go, okay, there's you know, um, I'm working on a show now for CBC. It's pretty simple because it's like our Cesus, which is our sort of secret police here. It's that's what it's about. So I'm looking at this set and figuring, okay, talking to the showrunner. So this is a it's a smaller, it's a half hour, so they don't have many as many sets. But they basically I'm looking to see what's what's in the script as far as what I think they're building. And I may make suggestions, I think she build that. Some things are obvious, you know. Like I'm like, they gotta, they really need to shoot this in the studio because it's you know 10 pages in a hotel room or whatever, it's tough to find a hotel room that's gonna work. So, but there's certain things that you automatically feel like, okay, that should be in the studio.

Greg Staffa 24:44

Isn't there anything that you're drawn to more? I mean, with Jason X, you know, you're talking about horror in a spaceship, whereas with you know, pushing tin, it's a workplace environment that's more recognizable or even like Flashpoint is cityscape environment. Is there one more that you're drawn to where one is very fictionalized and we have to kind of imagine that? Where the streets of Flashpoint is not too hard to imagine. Do you find one more creatively you know exhilarating, or is it all just equally as as enjoyable?

John Dondertman 25:20

I really like because I've done a few horror movies. Horror is fun because you're not really constrained by a lot of things. Uh, you know, we redesigned the whole White House, but it still had to be believable, right? Like if you watch it go, okay, that's the White House, but it's like, you know, I was able to work with the paint colors and the wallpaper and the furniture with sort of reimagine. Uh like every president goes in, redecorates, anyways. So I was able to do that. I like grittier stuff. You know, I did a hospital a few years ago. At first, I was like, uh hospital, but you can really get into it and you can make it, you know, you're like, okay, I've got to make this interesting but yet believable for the shooting crew and the actors. So there's always a challenge. But if I have my I'd love to do a Western town. I've never done a Western town. You know, I'm not as I'm not as attracted to sci-fi, like horror, anything gritty, like or from black with sci-fi, but not in a space age sense, right? It's contemporary, present-day sci-fi. We did a thing for Apple called Circuit Breakers, and that was set 10 minutes in the future. Now, weirdly, we made 14 episodes. They only ever aired seven, and I don't know why, because the seven that they didn't air were probably the best of the bunch, though it's very pertinent confusing to me. But they were like all mini movies that was like a twilight zone for kids, and that was really that was fun. It was tough too, like so so fast. We had to do stuff so quick. But um got to do lots of cool stuff and fun stuff. But I I would I would love to do like a light gritty stuff, like I'd rather do an old house than a new house, you know, for instance.

Greg Staffa 27:03

Just because the the set almost has to be a character in itself that you're creating this living, lived in world versus something that's new and you know, almost pristine.

John Dondertman 27:16

Yeah, it's nice to put uh put a character. Uh, you know, just you know, there's more layers of paint, maybe wallpaper, furniture, everything. You know, it's just particularly also for people that work for me, they enjoy that period. Like period stuff is really great to work on. It's not as much of that these days, I find. Yeah, so any textural is good.

Destruction, Blood, Fire, And Resets

Greg Staffa 27:39

Interesting. No, how much of your I mean, once a set is designed and built, is that the end of it, or sometimes do you almost have to do it twice because like you had mentioned enjoying doing horror films? Well, horror films might have blood and destruction and whatnot. Do you almost have to design the the pristine version and then the destructive version?

John Dondertman 28:03

Or yeah, in a way, so again, like Chucky's the season three of Chucky's a good example because even though we had to get all the sets done very quickly, but there was always other there was some location work. Um, there was always these satellite sets. You know, I had to build, like we did a huge Halloween party at uh the Fairmont Hotel in Toronto, took over their ballroom, and it was meant to be in the White House. That was a that was a huge deal, like it's a massive, massive room that you know, you imagine what you have to imagine what what you would see if the White House had a Halloween party in their in their ballroom, right? So there's all this stuff's going on simultaneously, and there's also uh I think I was turning some of the sets around. I turned the president's bedroom into something else. Oh, yeah, at the end it's like the room Chucky's in. There's this white kind of uh 2001 kind of set. So we do flip some of the sets, so there's always stuff going on. I converted a few of the rooms, like the first lady's office. I converted that into something else, I can't even remember. And uh just redressing parts to look like different parts of the White House, but then in the Oval Office at the end, like blood starts coming out of the sprinkler heads and uh dousing the whole room, and they were never supposed to do that because you know, all that furniture was rented, and I was like, Well, you can't really do that because we don't own this, we don't own this desk, resolute desk, and all this stuff. So we had to, I had to adapt and sort of figure, okay, I got to change all these paintings, I got to find a resolute desk that maybe if we get, you know, that's not as we had one that was pristine. There just happened to be another one that was a little beat up, so we brought that one in because we could clean it up. So all this stuff is going on all the time. Then they decided to have real fire all over the set at the end because they knew we were done. So that was a deal because like they literally are having the ceiling fall down in flames and doing all this stuff. So I'm always busy, there's always stuff going on. Um and that's honestly, that's the fun stuff to do, you know. We had an elevator filled with if you know if you've if you've watched it or not, like we had an elevator fill up with blood. So that was a whole that took us a couple of months to figure out how to do that in a way that was sort of practical to shoot. Um and that that connected with uh location, like some of the White House, we had some local a little bit of location that helped expand the set.

Accuracy Versus Drama In True Stories

Greg Staffa 30:49

I'm a big fan of uh the mythology or the history of Billy the Kid. And they had like the Young Guns movies one and two come out, and it always drives me nuts that some of the liberties that are taken, you know, in in those films where you know we know what a lot of these buildings look like because they're still there in New Mexico. I mean, you can go visit the jail cell where you know he escaped from and this kind of stuff. When you're creating something, I don't know how many historical stuff you've done, but even in pushing tin, where you're creating a workplace environment that is you know recognizable. We've all seen like air traffic control, you know, rooms. When you're doing that, what is kind of the fine line, or how do you kind of balance what might be real, your real life or historical, versus setting it up to be film? Because, like you said, you know, the couch might be in the waist, you have to move it, even though a couch might fit better there, but it doesn't work for practical filming. So liberties are taken. How do you balance liberties that are being taken from creating kind of real workplace environments that you're you're doing?

John Dondertman 32:00

Well, two things. One is I was the art director on pushing 10, so I wasn't a designer. I was a guy by the name of Bruno Rabeo, he passed away a few years ago. But in that case, they made it as accurate to the real Trait as possible. So that was those were pretty realistic. But as far as we talked about the reality versus art, the real true realities versus the film reality. Yep. Yeah, so it's at Flashpoint. When we first started, we're like, oh, these guys do all kinds of cool stuff. They drive up with a ladder truck and crash through windows. But that what happens in Flashpoint, they don't actually do all that stuff. They don't do everything, they don't do the mediation and the, you know, it's it's like a lot of these shows, it's an amalgam, it's a dramatized version to make it more palatable for the readers. It's not a documentary about about SWAT teams as much as we wanted it. We wanted more action, hardcore action in there, but that was not what the writers, you know, they were more about human stories. Yes, me, me and my art director, just because you know we we found that stuff pretty exciting. I'll mention there's one other show that I'm super proud of that, unfortunately you can't watch. It was called The Path to 9-11. It aired twice in 2005 or 2006. It's about the there was a commission, 9-11 commission report. Really interesting. And it was so some people got very sensitized about the content that it was, it's kind of been blacklisted or red, what do they call it, red acted. You can see it on YouTube, parts of it comes and goes. Sometimes it's urged and it disappears, but it follows from 1992 right up to the bombing of the World Trade Center, all the things that happened. I built 200 sets for that place, as well as a Tracon unit, and and we shot in and in uh Morocco as well. There's a fantastic documentary, and it's really that kind of hurts to me. The people that saw it were like, that is off the hook. They just thought it was incredible. It was shot like a documentary, and it's very illuminated, very interesting. Sad, terrible story, of course, like absolutely horrible terrible. But a lot of people just don't know. It has nothing to do with the end, what happened at the end with the buildings coming down. It was all the lead up, all the stuff that happened before then. But so I was then building his aircraft controls and uh a CIA office, a huge FBI office I built. The FBI let me send a person to New York and photograph the entire floor, everything. It's amazing. They let it, I doubt they let you do it now. And I recreated it here. Huge, huge set. So full floor of a big office tower. So, anyway, at any rate, that was, and then we shot in we shot Afghanistan and Morocco and that sort of stuff that was going on. Um, but that that's quite good. You can catch again, once in a while, it shows up in its entirety on YouTube. Often the quality is really not great. Somebody uploads it from time to time. Very interesting. Uh what's his name? Uh Harvey Kaitel is in it.

Greg Staffa 35:22

Yeah, yeah, is this the one with Harvey Kaitel? Uh Kevin Dunn. Yeah, there's a few names that are recognized. I'm just looking at the IMDB of it, but it is the one with Harvey Kaitel, huh? Yeah. Okay. Oh, William Sadler. We've had him on the podcast. He was on it. Yeah, there's some good names on here. There's an interesting cast. Yeah.

John Dondertman 35:42

I built a whole plane. I built a plane interior.

Greg Staffa 35:46

Great.

John Dondertman 35:46

I built a whole village on a mountain in Morocco, um, like a stone village. And uh we had like cannons and crazy like guns, bucket loads of hundreds of weapons, like real weapons, we had the military helping us. Um did a quite a bit of stuff over

Dream Projects And Career Lessons

John Dondertman 36:07

there.

Greg Staffa 36:07

You mentioned that one of the things you wish you could do as a Western is if Steven Spielberg came to you and said, you know, I am my usual guy that I use, but I want, I've seen your work, I love your work. Is there a story that you want me to tell that would be personal to you that you would just really find pride in being able to work? Is there a story out there that you would love to put your fingerprint on it?

John Dondertman 36:31

Well, that's hard that's because I've read all of Cormac McCarthy's books and they've made movies out of sort of some of the better. I think they're making Blood Meridian right now. Uh, I just read Lonesome Dove, which they made a series about. The thing is, I would I guess Spielberg, if anyone could do it, but you know, you you sometimes hesitate to watch movies of books that you really, really enjoy because you're afraid that they just it's not gonna hit the mark. But if Steven Spielberg came to me, I don't have another uh Western that I can think of. There's a lot of historical stuff I enjoy. At one point I read a lot about polar exploration and Antarctic exploration. Um something like that would be interesting to me, you know, which isn't a Western, but still is a historical drama. But there isn't, there is not, again, I read all the Karmack McCarthy stuff they've done, they've done all that, all the pretty horses, I think they're making. Or is that made or that was made already? I haven't seen it. At any rate, so that's that's my thoughts on that.

Greg Staffa 37:36

If someone is listening for the first time and hearing about what a production designer does, and listening to this podcast and you know, hearing you talk, what are some key elements of their personality that would make someone a good production designer? Is it creativity? Is it the analytical? What is it? Well, that's a good question.

John Dondertman 37:58

I think different designers take different approaches. I studied architecture, I think I have more of a systematic approach. There's people that maybe have fine arts degrees that maybe aren't that have a great understanding of architecture that may have a slightly different approach. So they someone like that may hire a really, really strong art director who's got an architectural background that they can trust to look after the details. So I look after a lot of that stuff myself because that's just my my training. So I don't know if there's a really uh, I mean, you got to be able to multitask, you gotta be able to just stay calm under pressure for sure, and you gotta deliver the goods, you gotta hire the right people. But as far as the personality, I would I never work with other production designers, so and I'm not really don't hang out with any. We just don't seem to hang out much. Um, so that's how I say I just think people different people just like directors say of different approaches.

Greg Staffa 39:04

And is there any film or TV series that you were passed on that you watch and were like, God, I wish I would have had. I mean, we always resent not getting that job, but is there one that really stands out that I would have loved to put my fingerprint on that, and I it would have a maybe a different take on it that you just wish, man, if I had a chance at that, that would have been great.

John Dondertman 39:28

There's probably a lot. I may block them out. You know, you don't get all the jobs you apply for, so actually nothing comes to mind at the moment, but definitely, you know, over the years, I don't get every job, so there's been a ton. I don't think there's anything. Well, I I was up for Romeo and Juliet as the art director way back, Baz Lerman. So that was a really cool job, which I didn't end up getting, but you know, that would have been really great to work on. That's a super exciting, creative, fun move, fun movie, film.

Greg Staffa 40:00

Well, I mean, that was almost known more for its visuals than it was for the story.

John Dondertman 40:05

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so that's why that that um and a lot of people I was based here out of Toronto, even though they shot in Mexico. That's the only one that comes to mind.

Greg Staffa 40:16

Wrapping things up, and I appreciate you for coming on. You know, you mentioned that you have the architecture background. Was there a point where you realized that production design and film and television was the route to go versus more conventional architecture? And and what was that that kind of got you realizing that this was a sustainable career?

John Dondertman 40:37

Well, it was it was uh sort of incremental. I was like 19 and I needed work. I needed like I left home very early, so I was sort of rough sort of teenage years, and then a friend of mine said, Oh, they're hiring like your carp, they need carpenters on the film sets. Now I wasn't a carpenter, I was kind of wanted to be a carpenter. So I ended up on this job, which was it's another story. It was kind of it was very fortunate because it was a case of mistaken identity. They hired me, they thought I was somebody else, um, that they're who didn't call when they were supposed to. So the fact that I called, someone else didn't got me that job. But then what I did is I started starting, I studied architecture in night school. So I was working in the shop, construction shop, building scenery and studying architecture um in the evenings. Took me several years to do that. So when I was on the fly with this designer, Carol Speer, who does all Cronenberg's films, I was make sure to like not be like I would say hello once in a while, right? So once I had a portfolio um together, um, I went up and said, I have a portfolio. Would you, you know, consider hiring me? So that's kind of how that, and I end up getting a job with her on a movie called Agnes of God, which was like at the time pretty big deal. It's like Norman Jewson and Jane Fonda, this DP Spen Nyquist, who was like very, very famous cinematographer, and the designer I was working with as a trainee. My very first job was Ken Adams. Now, if you know Ken Adams, is he did all the Bond films, he did Barry Linden, the guy, he was like this moniker doesn't hold anymore, but he was at the time considered the best designer, production designer in the planet. And I was so green I didn't even realize what I'd stumbled onto. So, but that was anyway, so that's that's and I just went from there. I would work on the studio for a while, building sets, and then I'd get a job for a month or two, and I just worked my way up, basically from cleaning the floors and scrubbing the floors up to working as an assistant and then art director and finally designing. It's been a long, it was a long road. It was never easy, I would say. But it's definitely been enjoyable, and the people I think I'll say this like the people I've worked with for the most part, fantastic people, and uh that's sort of makes you know makes the day go by, you know, in a good way.

Identity, Leadership, And Closing Thoughts

Greg Staffa 43:15

Well, John, I appreciate coming on. I just have one final question that I ask of all my guests. You know, when you mention your name and your industry, it's hard not to mention things like Flashpoint or you know, Titans and stuff like that. We we tend in the industry to clump the work that they've done in with their name. You know, you mentioned you and we mentioned Chucky. But when you get up in the morning and you go into the bathroom and splash all the water on your face and look in the mirror, who is it that you see?

John Dondertman 43:46

Well, I guess that's changed over the years. That's a tough tough question. But now, you know, I'm nearer the end of my career than the beginning. So wow, what a quest, what a question to ask. I I'm trying to be, you know, I'd like to be, you know, a good person. It treats people well and uh, you know, sensitive to the people, you know, people I work with have sometimes they have issues at home or health issues or whatever. So you gotta be sensitive to these things. And um, I think when you give people room to do their job, they perform better. So I don't know if that answers your question, but um it's uh on the other hand, like I'm in my 60s now, so I'm looking at this face going, what the hell? Yeah, you know, I wear my hair's thinning and I wear glasses, and you know, uh this happen this will happen to everybody sooner or later. But just like I still feel internally in a lot of ways the same way I did when I was 30 or 40. You know.

Greg Staffa 44:52

There you go. Well, John, thank you again for coming on. I really appreciate your time and look forward to it.

John Dondertman 44:58

Really nice talking. Yeah, great talking to you. Great questions, really very, very well thought out. Formulated, but really great work.

Greg Staffa 45:08

I look forward to seeing what the future holds for you.